?ing actual promises?

[baimac]

Hi All,

As there are many different kinds of people, there are many kinds of promises that brides expect to exchange when they marry. 200 years ago, in the US, most brides probably exchanged very similar promises and the culture expected both parties to keep the same promises - even the law expected the same from everyone.

Now, the cultural understandings of marriage promises have broadened to include the two day weddings of Holywood stars.

Do brides know that when they sign their state marriage license application, they are accpeting a one-size-fits all set of marriage obligations, rights and even separation procedures? I saw in one bridal magazine an article which designated the state marriage license as the grooms repsonibilty, but do any grooms come back with "a right to know brochure" explaining the obligations and rights that the state assumes everone plan on exchanging?

I've heard men say that brides are ditzy:panda: , and only care about the big party and the size of the ring. Please shed some light on this topic.

Do brides care about the actual promises, and what do they expect? Do they know that signing a state marrige license application is like signing a government prepared pre-nuptial agreement?

[frenchie]

When you get married you should know the legal obligations you will now have toward your spouse, and any officiant will tell them to you. Most books on wedding planning have a section about this too.
Brides aren't ditzy. It's just that once they've decided that, yes, the legal promises are ones they're ready to make, well there's not much else to do or talk about. However planning the big party is time-consuming so that's mostly what they talk about/spend their time on.

[shawnsgirl]

Frankly, if you don't know what the marriage liscense means and what obligations and promises you are making then perhaps they shouldn't be getting married! Out of all the ladies I have spoken to here on one wed, not a single one of them are ditzy or have no clue what they are getting into. I think the majority of us are excited and happy to be beginning our lives with the person we love most. I myself am very aware of what promises and obligations I have made and will promise to make forever. They are not just legal but religious promises as well.

I do think there are some brides out there that are more into the planning the wedding than planning a marriage or a life with someone. However, I think those brides are few and far between. I think the majority of us have taken on the responsiblity of planning a big event and for most of us this may be the first big event we have ever planned. With that you want to ensure you and your guests are happy and have a wonderful time. With that comes a lot of pressure, stress, and planning in its self.

[baimac]

Hi Shawsgirl,

You wrote:
Frankly, if you don't know what the marriage liscense means and what obligations and promises you are making then perhaps they shouldn't be getting married! Out of all the ladies I have spoken to here on one wed, not a single one of them are ditzy or have no clue what they are getting into. I think the majority of us are excited and happy to be beginning our lives with the person we love most. I myself am very aware of what promises and obligations I have made and will promise to make forever. They are not just legal but religious promises as well.

If the majority are excited and happy to beginning their lives, with promises that are forever, "which are not just religious promises, but legal too," then the question becomes what are those promises? If some Hollywood star intends to get into a two-day marriage, and members of this forum intend lifetime marriages, are the intentions the same?

Do the brides in this forum know what obligations and rights are specified in their residing state where they sign the state marriage license application? Are the generic terms of marriage agreements specified by the state's marriage license application acceptable to the members of this forum?

In the legal world, signed agreements can not mean two opposite things. The agreements mean what the specify - in writing.

Planning a wedding day is a BIG task, and understanding signed written agreements is something that our culture emphasizes. Couples will likely make sure they understand and agree to the terms of the contract with their reception hall, before signing. Are brides in this forum making sure they understand and agree to the terms of the state marriage license application's contract, before signing?

[Goin2thechapel]

If you don't mind my asking...What is your agenda with this forum and these posts?

[shawnsgirl]

That's what I was thinking!!

[shawnsgirl]

I see what this person is trying to get at here. Check out the website, ok not really...its' just another form of a prenup basically! The mere arguement is for promotiong of their "proclamations" which is basically a pre nup but with a fancy plaque! Actually most states wouldn't recognize it unless it was drawn up as such a prenup was.

[WebLady]

I think most people go into a marriage with the intent of it being a life long deal. I will not go into what I think of some celebrities, who knows what they are thinking half the time :ooh: But some people just get married for the wrong reasons (marry too young (people change as they mature), because of children, because of money, to get out on their own, etc) and/or end up with the wrong person because they rushed into it or whatever.

So I think it all goes back to being self sufficient and finding the right person to share your life with. Asking each other the "hard questions" and make sure you are both in it for the same things.

Here are a couple of other older topics about these "hard questions" ...

http://forums.onewed.com/showthread.php?t=6063

http://forums.onewed.com/showthread.php?t=394

[baimac]

I'm asking questions of today's brides because intentions and promises matter. As I first noted, 200 years ago, most couples had the same understanding of marriage promises. Now there is a broad variety.

When signing a state marriage license application, one is agreeing to specified rights, and obligations. But, does anyone tell brides what those obligations are? For couples who don't actually agree to the specifications in the one-size-fits all state marriage promises, there is the option of signing pre-nups.

Do those who intend life-long marriage, as the postings indicate, have the right to know the specific obligations and rights to which they agree by signing their marriage license?

My adgenda is to learn.

Do brides think about the terms of the state marriage license application agreement? If those terms are vehimently opposed to the intented obligations that bride and her groom intend to agree to, then do brides care?

Bai

[frenchie]

I don't know WHAT you are talking about. In France the "legal" document basically makes the couple have financial solidarity, as well as emotional, and gives them equal rights when raising their children. I haven't read the specifics yet but that's pretty much all it is - and there's nothing wrong with that. Legally the State can't make you do something they have no way of checking, a.k.a what happens in the privacy of your home. So it makes sense that the traditional wedding vows, and religious promises aren't mirrored in the licence. That's not what it's there for. The State can't put you in prison if you insult your wife, which isn't "cherishing" her. The State can't forbid you from divorcing either - that's not what it's there for.
The promises you make in church are ones you make to God and to yourselves, the only people who can truely keep you accountable, really.
Adultery is wrong, however in US law it won't land you in prison. However if you're the victim, you will have special rights in the divorce (in general). Even the Bible allows divorce under certain circumstances.

What I'm saying here is that it's kind of a non-argument. Pre-nups only make sense if you're rich and want a way out without losing your fortune, and those are really lame in general I think.

[WebLady]

Here is my take on all this ... I think what this person may be talking about it how there are pretty much set general terms for divorce and separation and that is not really what marriage is/should be about; such as this (taken from her website) ...

-equally splitting property in half,
-individually supporting a separate household from the other parent with children traveling between each house on a rigid schedule,
-potentially having one's children taken away for much or most of the time and being forced to pay extra money to support one's children in a house in which one is not permitted to live, and
-expecting public subsidies or extended family to support the children, or the spouse not seeking separation, if financial harm is caused by breaking one family into two households

But these things only apply if you get divorced ... sure the "ideals" of marriage have changed over the years and there is more divorce these days than there was in decades past. But even a "proclamation" (like this person is selling on their website) will not solve that problem.

So again I think it all goes back to getting married to the right person for the right reasons ... talking about marriage and what each party expects, wants and needs from the arrangement. Counseling and talk about "the hard questions" as mentioned before may help.

But there will still be people that get into it for the wrong reasons and/or marry the wrong person and there will still be divorce. I think this also has to do with society's stigma that you 'have' to be married and 'have' to have a family and all that. There is often alot of family as well as society pressures to get married and have children.

So much so that some women become obsessed with the idea of being married and feel they just have to be married by 30 (an example, I used to feel this way) even if it is to someone that may not be really right for them (even though they feel they are at the moment). Then will often become obsessed with having children; their parents get obsessed with grandchildren and pressure them.

I was married before and looking back now I saw the trouble signs before and now I realize that I got married to the wrong person for the wrong reasons. But I am glad there was a way for me to get out of that situation and a chance to learn from my mistake.

Now I feel I am in a much better relationship, I am married to a man that shares my hopes and dreams and encourages me and we grow together everyday. We talked in depth about marriage and what we both understood it to be and what we wanted and expected out of it before we decided to get married. I don't see us having any problems and I plan for us to grow old together. But if for some reason that doesn't work out and we are not able to live happily together anymore, I am glad to have the option to move on and learn from the experience.

I sure wouldn't want to feel stuck in an unhappy and/or unhealthy marriage. But at the same time, it is certainly not good to go into a marriage thinking "well, if it doesn't work out I can just get divorced"

Well I hope my ramblings made some sense :worm:

[baimac]

Hi Frenchie

You wrote:
I don't know WHAT you are talking about. In France the "legal" document basically makes the couple have financial solidarity, as well as emotional, and gives them equal rights when raising their children. I haven't read the specifics yet but that's pretty much all it is - and there's nothing wrong with that. ... Adultery is wrong, however in US law it won't land you in prison. However if you're the victim, you will have special rights in the divorce (in general). Even the Bible allows divorce under certain circumstances.

In the United States, the marriage license process does two things: 1) It defines the couple's status as married, so that employers, schools, doctors, tax collectors, etc, know that both parents have equal rights to raising children, and 2) It defines the contractual obligations, rights and guidelines to which the couple agrees to adhere - their residing state's statutes. For those who want different obligations, they sign prenuptial agreements.

You haven't read the specifics of the French law, and you say in France, "the 'legal' document basically makes the couple have financial solidarity, as well as emotional, and gives them equal rights when raising their children. I haven't read the specifics yet but that's pretty much all it is - " Domestic Relations law in the states includes more than solidarity and equal rights when raising their children; it includes separation rights and divorce specifications.

Are you sure that the dedicated spouse who is the victim of an unfaithful adulterous partner has special rights in divorce in France? In the US, the courts make no distinction between adulterers and dedicated spouses in custody determinations (except in New York), and typically courts make no distinction in property division and support orders either. Divorces can be obtained for any an no reason. Often the adulterous parent is awarded the children even though the other parent doesn't want the children taken away at all. Is that what the brides and the grooms in this forum are promising to each other?

You wrote "I don't know WHAT you are talking about." I am talking about the distinction between promises, obligations and rights to which bride and groom agree to adhere when they enter marriage, in contrast to the obligations and rights that are specified by one-size-fits-all government marriage promises. I'll repeat, if the specifications in the state marriage license are the opposite of the expectations of the brides, does anybody care?

[baimac]

Hello Weblady

You wrote:
But these things only apply if you get divorced ... sure the "ideals" of marriage have changed over the years and there is more divorce these days than there was in decades past. But even a "proclamation" (like this person is selling on their website) will not solve that problem.

The proclamation which you described above is distributed through our 501(c)(3) non-for-profit work and was created by a constitutional law expert whose curriculum vitea is pages and pages long. His services are not the "proclamation" alone. Do you have time to share why you belive his services will not solve "that problem?"

There is more divorce these days than there was in decades past - and there is a different kind of divorce, based on the obligations and rights -which were redefinded by the state legislatures in the early 70's.

In the United States Constitution it specifies that no state may make a law imparing on the obligations of contracts. That is why I am so intereseted in knowing what promises the brides in this forum are actually making. If they are making promises different than the ones the state legislatures described, do brides know the ramifications of signing a state marriage license?

[SerendipityCrafts]

Do the brides in this forum know what obligations and rights are specified in their residing state where they sign the state marriage license application? Are the generic terms of marriage agreements specified by the state's marriage license application acceptable to the members of this forum?

In the legal world, signed agreements can not mean two opposite things. The agreements mean what the specify - in writing.

Planning a wedding day is a BIG task, and understanding signed written agreements is something that our culture emphasizes. Couples will likely make sure they understand and agree to the terms of the contract with their reception hall, before signing. Are brides in this forum making sure they understand and agree to the terms of the state marriage license application's contract, before signing?

Instead of asking if we understand the promises that we have made (or about to make), could you please give some examples of common misconceptions, mistakes or blunders that couple's make, which could be avoided.

This I believe would be informative. Keep in mind that we are located in various cities and towns all over the globe.

BTW - signed agreements CAN indeed mean two different things. Everything is open to debate, or interpretation.

[shawnsgirl]

I agree...I'm still have problems understanding what she is getting at here. I know that when I signed a state marriage liscense in PA, it is not an official until it is signed by an officiant who preformed the marriage liscense. Basically, I understand what legalities are involved when getting married and what promises I am making. Once the vows are promised and the marriage liscense is signed we are officially married in the states eyes. As well, in the event of a divorce legally him and I would have rights to any biological children to the two of us. Any property or assets would be divided in a court of law which would be included in a divorce decree. If the assets were taken and divided outside a court of law he and I are entitled to half of each. If no visitation or custody papers are drawn between children either of us could run off with the children it wouldn't matter. There is not legal binding that I have to allow him to see the kids or vice versa until a custody agreement has been reached. Along with the laws in PA of the "legal" promises, I still believe for me that the promises that me and my FH are making are more religious and are before god not the state of Pennsylvania. I promising him before god to be faithful, honest, to love him, to be supportive of him, and to stand beside him.

[SerendipityCrafts]

I agree...I'm still have problems understanding what she is getting at here.

Don't we all :) I believe they are either trying to recruit or trying to sell something but for the life of me, I can't figure out what it is (aside from their framed contracts that is).