Sleep Issues

[savepaws]

Moving the discussion of sleep to its own thread so all of your ideas are easy for me to reference back to!


Now, I know I don't have mulitples, but I am strong believer in sticking to a routine, so my advice on that front is to stick to whatever you decide to change (like where they sleep, etc) for 5 days. I know that sounds like a long time, but a) can it get much worse? and b) just like adults, it takes babies a little bit to adjust before you start seeing a difference. Try not to get discouraged, something will work!! I have read the babywise books, and they do have a section on multiples. I also visit their forums a lot for advice on routines, etc. In fact, I have spent most of my day (when Zach is asleep) on there trying to figure out how to get this child sleeping better! If you have any questions about routines, etc. PM me or message me on FB and I'll do my best to answer them for you!! I tend to research EVERYTHING so I'd love to put some of this plethora of information I come a cross to use!

I agree, I think we need to give them time to get used to something new. I'm thinking about taking some time off work and switching with DH and taking the night shift and working on sleep training. I just need to get the knowledge and a good plan.

I think one of their biggest problems is that they wake up and can't get themselves back to sleep so they are just awake when they should be sleeping. How do I change that? I can't make them stay asleep or make them sleep. I plan on trying white noise but I really don't think it'll really keep them from waking up, I mean we all go through different cycles of sleep no matter if we have perfect sleep conditions or not. It certainly won't help them go back to sleep because when they are awake, they are awake.

I've read several books and I plan to re-read them again. I welcome any suggestions or ideas!

[ikkin510]

I know you have read it, but re-read the no cry sleep solution. That gave a few ideas on what to do when kids can't put themselves back to sleep like that. Carter was one of those kids. I don't know if we ever figured out the 'magic' to getting him to do it. Once he started taking a pacifier that did help him (he didn't take one until a year old.)
I definitely agree that if you can get a set schedule it would really help. And you need to get the sitters on board once you have it set up. If you can take a couple days off to work on it that would probably be perfect. I *think* your doctor mentioned this, but maybe they my not be sleeping well at night and crabby during the day because they aren't getting enough sleep. Unfortunately that's a tough cycle to break.
I know I was at my wits end with Carter waking up multiple times every night at 9 months, a year, etc. I can't imagine going through it with two at once. So if you can focus on setting the schedule and sticking to it, I really think that would be a HUGE help and you'll see a big difference.

[savepaws]

Yeah the doc thinks a lot of their problems are due to not getting enough sleep. I will definitely re-read No Cry Sleep Solution. I'm gonna read all the books I have and I ordered one more (Baby Whisperer) and am going to devise a plan of attack based on everything I learn.

[lize566]

I'm on my phone so please forgive typos and I will try to post more tomorrow. I wouldfocus on breaking the OT cycle. This will probably be difficult with 2, but the main idea is to get the too sleep however possible, even of that mean holding them (you may already be doing everything possible if so just keep doing it)

[lize566]

Okay, I had to come to my computer, it just wasn't working on my phone!

I would focus on breaking the OT cycle. This will probably be difficult with 2, but the main idea is to get them to sleep however possible (which you may already be doing). The problem with this cycle is that once they are over tired, they have trouble settling down, so they will wake more often going in and out of sleep cycles. I always know when Zach has gone to bed to late b/c he is a nightmare to get down and once he is, he wakes like every 30-60 minutes.

I agree with everything Nikki said, but I haven't read the No Cry Sleep Solution, so I'm not sure what it talks about. This seems to be a good site that talks about correctly interpreting sleep signs.
http://www.thefussybabysite.com/sleeping/sleep-and-fussy-babies

It may be easier for you to rely on the clock and not their tired signs, so for instance, put them down for a nap every 60 minutes or so (not sure how often they currently sleep, but whatever it is, I would put them down more often). Once you read the BW (babywhisperer) book this might make sense, but their naps determine the time of their next nap, so if like they sleep 30 minutes, they might only stay awake 60-90 minutes. This is different for every baby, and it will take a few days of trial and error to get it right, but if you put them down every 60 minutes (this is just to get them out the OT cycle, ideally they should be awake more like 2-3 hours between naps) and they continue to wake after 30 minutes and can't be soothed (hand on their back, picking up and rocking, etc) then shorten their activity time by 10-15 minutes until you get a longer nap. Does that make sense? If not, it will after you read the BW book. And I didn't even think about it, but I could've sent you my copy!! I probably have more to add, but I don't want to overwhelm you and I need to go to bed.

So, I would put them down for naps frequently, and do everything you can to soothe them back to sleep. The only thing I wouldn't do is feed them (unless it's been 3 hours and it's time for a feed). Hope this helps!!

[firespirit]

So I find that Annika goes back to sleep after a night feeding a little easier when I sing to her. The hawaiian sounding version of Over the Rainbow tends to make her close her eyes more easily. But almost anything seems to work. I tend to play the more calming songs and ones I listed to when I was pregnant.

[lize566]

How's the sleeping been going??

[savepaws]

Its going about the same - I haven't tried anything new yet. I am trying to get all my knowledge first and a good game plan first. I do feel like they are napping a bit better. Like yesterday, T had just napped like 45 minutes ago but it wasn't a great nap and I noticed she seemed tired still so instead of going 1.5 -2 hours like normal in between naps, I put her down for another nap and she went right to sleep. I got a lot accomplished yesterday afternoon, due to good napping. Night sleep is still basically the same and they are actually wanting to stay up later these days and sometimes they'll wake up at night wanting to get up and play and they'll stay awake for an hour or so. They are so close to crawling, I wonder if it has to do with all the development they are going through. I have stopped letting the dogs out in the living room in the morning and keep them in the bedroom with DH. I keep things as quiet as possible and the girls are finally sleeping until 6:30 - 7:00 am. The dogs aren't real loud or make a lot of noise, but they'll scratch their head or Willy will dig around on the couch trying to get comfy and all those little things just disturb the girls' sleep.

My Baby Whisperer book showed up the other day. I like what I've read so far (just a few pages). I just wish I could get DH to get on board and commited. He tells me to read the books and then report what I learn. And then I do and he's like "well they don't know anything!" or says it doesn't apply to our girls because: "we have two babies" "they were preemies" "they have reflux" and so on.... He has all these reasons and excuses why nothing will work. He's already given up before we've started. But I'm no better! I try something and give up as soon as it gets hard.

For example, every couple of weeks I get determined to get the girls to sleep in their cribs. So I go home and when its naptime I put them down in their cribs. I stay in the room or right outside the door for a bit and if they are ok, I quietly leave. But one or both usually starts crying and before I know it I'm going back and forth between their cribs replacing pacis. As soon as I leave one baby to help the other baby, the baby that I left starts crying. So then I leave the other baby to help that baby and the other baby cries. Its a vicious cycle. And they don't go to sleep because neither one is content enough to even try to sleep unless I do the paci thing. Putting them in the same crib just doesn't work out well. I usually go on like this for about an hour and eventually I give up and put one or both of them back in their rock n play sleepers, and they fall fast asleep. Putting the rock n play sleepers in the nursery gets about the same results....little or no sleep. So I end up taking them back out to the living room, they fall fast asleep. But they wake up so easily because there is stuff going on out there. I can't blame DH for this...I don't have the ability to follow through either.

Maybe I should just "get rid" of the rock n play sleepers. Put them in a closet or the garage and pretend we don't have them. Then I have no choice but to put them in their cribs and help them get used to it. They are already starting to try and climb out, so we really need to get them in their cribs! The best way to handle it is to really get rid of them so that we don't cave. But DH won't really be ok with that. So for now I have to get nap times to work so I can prove to him that they can sleep in cribs and then he'll be willing to try it at night.

I do not want them to cry it out - but I don't know how to keep them from crying when there is 2 of them and one of me. I can only help one at a time. Should I try just leaving one out in the living room floor to play while I try and get one to sleep? The one in the living room will probably cry because I'm not in there with her though. Ugh, why can't this be easier??? Didn't mean to write a novel, I'm just kind of thinking outloud...

[savepaws]

This is not going well. They don't know how to fall asleep in the crib. I took Tenley to her crib, left Delaney in the living room to play but she started crying within minutes so I had to bring her in there.

I decided to focus on Tenley since she was the most upset about being in her crib and everytime she would cry, I would pick her up and rock her. But that is not comforting to her, they like to be put in the rock n play sleepers when they are stressed. And after about 20 minutes, I hadn't made any progress with Tenley and Delaney got upset so I had to try and keep going back and forth between them.

I had to take a break and now they are crying. :( I don't know what else to do. I'm thinking about bringing their sleepers in there, get them almost to sleep and then put them in their cribs? I don't have any other ideas but this isn't working. They don't know to go to sleep in their cribs so I can't blame them.

[savepaws]

Well that didn't work. They started to drift off in their sleepers and I put them in their cribs and they started screaming again. See, this is why I give up everytime. Who wants to go through this every couple of hours for nap time??? NOT ME. OMG I am at my wits end and I had to step away to calm myself down. I've been at this since 12:30 pm....so in 15 minutes it will be 2 hours. The past 45 minutes has just been them screaming, and me trying to get them to stop screaming. But like i said, there is one of me and two of them. This is impossible with two babies. No wonder I always give up. If I would have put them down to nap in their sleepers they would have been asleep by 12:45 and I would be getting stuff done around the house and they would be waking up soon, feeling refreshed from a nap. Now they are stressed, screaming and overtired.

Seriously, how can I put them through this every nap time? And I really don't think they are going to sleep in their cribs. Not with only one person to try and calm them down. When I'm helping one baby the other one cries which upsets the one I'm helping. UGGGGHHh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[savepaws]

I give up. The girls are out here in their sleepers. They are so extremely overtired so they aren't falling asleep out here either. And they are getting their second wind so after ALL of that cr@p, they most likely won't be getting a nap this afternoon. Lovely. I finally caved when they started to cough and I could hear their reflux coming up and hear them swallowing it. Once I heard that, I couldn't put them through that. Its a little hard to be consistent when you are dealing with what I deal with.

[savepaws]

Just posting to vent and release my frustration because there's obviously no one reading these messages at this point in time...lol

So trying to get them into their cribs was the WORST idea ever. Its been 2 1/2 hours since they needed their nap and they are no where near taking a nap now. They are screaming and have been screaming for 30 straight minutes at the top of their lungs. It doesn't matter if I pick them up and hold them - they are inconsolable. :( If I get one calmed down, the other one is upset and gets the calm one re-upset. See a pattern here? UGH!!!!!!!!!! And poor Tenley's voice is hoarse now. :(

Why does this have to be so fricken difficult? Nothing with them EVER comes easy and I'm so tired of it. Why do other moms get to bring home perfect babies who sleep through the night in their cribs and are happy little things for the most part? Why can't we have that?? :( All I want is for them to sleep in their stupid cribs. Heck at this point, I'd just settle for them to sleep in their sleepers.

[NOTKT]

:( I'm so sorry you were having so many problems today. It does seem like they are over tired. Is there anyway you can put on in another bedroom? Seems like any noise wakes them up.

[Salayia]

Oh wow. I just read your day's struggles and I must say that you are a SAINT for dealing with all of that! I know you don't have a choice, but wow. Wow. Wow. Wow.

I don't have kids, much less twins, and am completely baby dumb, so if my suggestions don't make sense or aren't practical, I completely understand! LOL! But, what if you worked on one baby for a while... put the other one in her rocker sleeper every day/night and worked on getting ONE baby to sleep in her crib. Then, after that one gets to a point where she's used to it, you start on the other one? Again, I don't know if that would work at all, but it's just a thought.

I also wonder why they sleep in the living room better than they do the bedroom?! What is it about the living room that comforts them? Maybe if you can figure that out, you can work on making their bedroom more... that (whatever "that" may be! ;)).

Again, I hope your situation gets better soon. I know my sister had the same sleep problems with her twins - one would get to sleep, and then the other would cry and wake the sleeping one up, etc... I don't envy you at all and I'm sorry you're going through this! :(

[savepaws]

Thanks, yeah I am wondering if I need to just tackle one baby at a time but man that was rough yesterday, I don't really want to deal with that again even with one baby! LOL And they are still all screwed up from it. They woke up at 5 am today. I let them play for awhile and they are really fighting going down for a nap but they need it. Instead of fighting it for 5-10 minutes and falling asleep, they are really freaking out, like they did yesterday even though they are in their sleepers in the living room. Crazy girls.

I think the living room is comforting just because its so familiar and its where they have slept the past 7 months. The nursery is just used for diaper changes and I take them in there to play so its familiar but its just not where they are used to sleeping.

[SkippyNXC]

can you move them in their sleepers after their asleep... so have em go down and once their out, take the sleeper and put it in their room... this way they're waking up to their room and can get used to "sleeping" in there... then as that becomes familiar routine, maybe they'll be more amicable to sleeping in there?

also are they playing in the same room their sleeping in?

maybe spend more awake time playing in their room so again it becomes a familiar place

[savepaws]

We do go and play in their room so they are used to the room - just not used to sleeping in it.

I'm not giving up totally. I can't give up, because they are getting too big for their rock n play sleepers. Here is my next plan of attack.

I am going to work on one girl at a time. When its nap time, I am going to put one girl down to sleep in her sleeper and the other one I am going to let her lay down in her sleeper, get sleepy, then I'm going to put her in the crib. I am going to set a time limit...maybe 10-20 minutes and if she is not progressing towards sleep or asleep in that amount of time, she will go to back to her sleeper. Or I might try Nicole's suggestion first and move her sleeper to the nursery when she's almost asleep or asleep.

I have only read the first few pages of the Baby Whisperer and she said have patience, so I took that to mean that I needed to be patient, stand my ground, do the same thing every day and eventually it would work. But it didn't work at all. Once they were overtired, they weren't going to fall asleep in their cribs...or in their sleepers for that matter. It took forever to get them calmed down and standing my ground had nothing to do with it. I have to work around my girls and find out what works for them with paying attention to their needs. They needed a nap at 12:30 pm yesterday. I thought the most important thing was that they napped in their crib and totally didn't recognize that I was making things worse by getting them way overtired by standing my ground. Lesson learned. The hard way as usual.

Yesterday's ordeal is still affecting them today! They woke up at 5 am and were ready to play. I got them up to play and BAM! out of nowhere they were overtired (duh, cuz they woke up 2 hours early!) and it was pretty tough to get them to go back to sleep.

[Salayia]

How was nap time today?

Just wanted to let you know I was thinking about you and your girls, and hoping that today went better than yesterday! :yesnod:

[lize566]

Danielle, the most helpful thing I ever read since Zachary was born was that you don't ever see college kids nursing to sleep, or sleeping in their parents beds (or rock and plays in this case!). There were nights I repeated that to myself over and over. Even if it seems never ending right now, they will eventually get it!! Unfortunately, I don't have great advice, b/c I don't have multiples. I think if you could swing it, I would try working on getting one baby in the crib (but once that baby sleeps in the crib, won't they be disrupted when you try to get the other one to sleep in the crib?). I also think it might be important to figure out what makes the rock and plays so soothing. Is it the way they are held, the material, the movement? If it's the material or way they are held, could you recreate it? What made me think of this is a picture of Zach when he was just a few months old. He would only sleep if swaddled, and my dad was watching while my mom and I had some bonding time laying out by the pool. Well, it was nap time, he didn't want to bother us, but he didn't know how to swaddle, so he laid him in one of the floor mats on the floor and put shoes on either side to kind of mimic the feeling of being swaddled (the pic is on my FB, it's actually pretty funny!). It worked, and Zach slept for a while! My point is that maybe you could take the fabric off the rock n plays and lay them in that in their crib (might not be the safest, so keep an eye on them). Also, do you have their mattresses propped up? They may not be able to sleep laying flat like that.

I'm so sorry this isn't easier for you! You will get it figured out, you are a great mother and do so much for your girls!!

[ChibiAiChan]

Do you have a bedtime/naptime routine? Maybe start by always doing the same thing for naps like getting the same CD or white noise. or maybe bottle, play, sleep (whatever order works for you obviously). I watched two and a half month old twins until they were 7 months old and thats what worked for them. Also we wrapped a blanket into a really tight roll and put their back against it so they weren't just laying in a big space. Sorry if I am not making sense, it's past 4 am here! Wish I could come over and give you a break but I live in MI! :sorry:

[savepaws]

Liz that is so funny, I looked up the pic you were talking about.

I didn't try any thing yesterday, they were so crazy from no sleep the day before. They took lots of naps though but didn't sleep at night. They were hyper until 10:30! They are always in bed by 8! I've never seen them hyper like that! Then they were up at 5 am. They must be going through something cuz they have been really different unpredictable and not going along w/ our normal routines.

Daniele, our routine is, we see that they are tired and put them in their sleepers and give them their pacis and a blankey and they fall asleep. I did that in their cribs too but they just don't seem to understand to sleep in them.

[flyerso6]

Do you have a pack n play? We broke Logan of the rock n play by having him sleep in their pack n play in our room. (they used to sleep in their rock n plays in our room). He was unhappy in the rock n play anyways and kept wanting to sleep on his side or belly. Unfortunately we only have one pack n play so Mackenzie is still her rock n play, and actually sometimes she sleeps in our bed after her morning bottle. I never thought we would still be using those things at 7 months :(. My MIL and DH's grandma gives us such a hard time about it too. We were going to try cribs last night but we were both too sad to move them out of our room. Could you maybe let them sleep in their rock n plays in their room for a couple weeks??

So I think working on one baby at a time would be a good idea!!

For nap time we don't put them in their cribs either. actually we just kind of let them stay wherever they fall asleep. Usually on the floor they fall asleep while playing. Logan naps in the swing a lot still too.

I just wanted to let you know you aren't the only one that needs to get babies out of rock n plays. They will completely outgrow them and soon too. yikes!

[lize566]

Liz that is so funny, I looked up the pic you were talking about.



I thought so, too. We cracked up when we came in and found him like that!

And the girls very well could be going through some developmental stuff...how many weeks are they adjusted?

One thing I have found with Zachary as he has gotten older is that his sleep signs have become nearly nonexistent. Some nights I just have to put him down based on how long he has been awake, and he usually goes to sleep. Not as easily as other night where he seems tired, but he goes down eventually. Maybe you could kind of tracks when they take naps (I have an awesome iphone app for that if you have a phone that uses apps) and see what their average awake time is so you have a starting point. It will probably be vastly different come days, but if you do it long enough you will get a good picture of what they can handle. Once you have an idea, you can start doing a wind down routine, like read a book, sing a song, put paci's in, etc. after a given amount of time instead of waiting until they are showing signs, b/c by then it might be too late. I hope this makes sense!

[f77g4]

I'm sorry sleeping is still such a big problem for you Danielle! I hope you can get things figured out soon.

[saltyveruca]

You guys have your rock n plays, we have our swaddle (and sometimes the swing). I have been trying for over a month to get him out of the swaddle but it's not happening. We are going to have to buy a bigger size soon! Haha!

And I really need to just pack the swing up in the attic. It's such a crutch for us. He won't let us buckle him in, and then if he wakes up in it unswaddled, he will flip himself around in it to look at stuff! So of course he is in a crazy and unsafe position, and he screamscreamscreams about it. The swing is a mess.

[savepaws]

Sarah, we do have a pack n play that we recently took down. We weren't using it for anything but the changing station. But I think if we are going to the trouble to break them of these darn sleepers, we just want them in their cribs. I am half tempted to just get rid of the sleepers and we ALL (me, hubby, sitters) have no choice but to use cribs. Though I'm sure my sitters would let them sleep in their arms a lot more. :-/

Liz, they are 6 months adjusted but with a lot of things, they are on track with their real age. I made up a chart awhile back and it really helped me figure out their sleeping routines and I was able to learn the signs that they were getting tired but now they are all over the place with naps. It doesn't help that we have so many different people watching them (me, my mom & DH's aunt & grandma). I really do not get any breaks anymore because one is pretty much always awake. It is exhausting. Having only 2 days a week with them on the weekends doesn't really help me figure out a good morning routine either. I rely on my sitters for that but they are all so inconsistent and my mom does it all alone and a lot of it is just survival to just get through until I come home from work. She tries to do what I ask but sometimes she feels like she has no other choice but to let one sleep in her arms because if that one cries, the other one wakes up and then she's stuck with 2 cranky babies. So I can't fault her for that - I totally understand what its like to do it all on my own. But on the otherhand, she wonders why they only take 20 minute naps. I try and tell her its because she starts talking to them if they open their eyes and if she would ignore them, they would probably go back to sleep. I probably should do charts again to see any new patterns but again, its hard to get EVERYONE to follow through. Sigh....

This morning I got up at 5am and D was wide awake when I came into the living room. I'm getting a little tired of that game. They think its time to play but then they get soooo tired and cranky so fast. Instead of letting D get up and play, I took her into the nursery so she wouldn't wake her sister up and I laid her in her crib. I sat there on a chair so I wouldn't have to run in and out. She played with her dolly for awhile and I didn't have to pick her up or do anything to soothe her, she eventually went to sleep on her own. It took a whole hour but I started crocheting (I'm getting good at crocheting in the dark - thats the only time I have to do it!) and she dozed off watching my hands work. She ended up sleeping an hour and 20 minutes, and got up at 7:20. So that was a good start, lets see if I can make that happen again! lol

[Salayia]

Way to go! Congrats on getting her to sleep in her crib!!! :D

[Heywie]

I'm sorry, Danielle! I know what you're going through minus one! I can't imagine doing it with two!

I had the same problems with Ollie. All these moms would talk about their baby's sleep schedule and how they couldn't go out at this certain time because it was nap time and I was like, "Your baby actually falls asleep at the same time each day?!"

The turning point for me was when we took Ollie to the doctor once, and it wasn't his usual doc. When I told him he wasn't sleeping easily, he said, "If he was at my house, he would."

I was immediately offended, but after some conversation, decided I had done EVERYTHING else and would try his approach. What am I talking about? Well, as hard as it was for me, I finally did the CIO method - but with my own adjustments.

Ollie is now on a schedule and sleeping through the night at the same time each day. The biggest trouble was just teaching him to fall asleep on his own. He always wanted to be rocked to sleep or to sleep on me while I was walking around. He's a big boy, and it was becoming impossible.

I started putting him in his crib when he either looked remotely tired or had been awake for more than a couple hours. I started a nighttime routine of bath, lotion, pjs, read a book, and go to bed. At first, I was a total chicken and would come in and get him whenever he cried. As time went on, I realized he was okay, but just really attached to me. The doctor had checked him out and said he was perfectly healthy and should be sleeping.

So I focused mostly on the nights at first. I'd still nap with him on my bed in the daytime and let him fall asleep on me in the living room. But at night, once I put him to bed, that's where he stayed. It was incredibly difficult for 2 nights. He cried for like 45 minutes the first night, and then slept for 6 hours. The second night, he cried for 15 minutes and slept all night long. By the end of the week, he was sleeping within 10 minutes of going down and sleeping all night long. Once he was doing better with that, I worked on the naps. Because he was used to sleeping at night, he was better during the day.

I know this isn't for everyone, and I was at my whit's end. It worked for us. I was soooo anti-CIO that I wasn't willing to even try it, but I finally caved in.

Of course, he still goes through phases of teething, being sick, etc where sleep is more difficult, but overall, we are in a good routine.

I know it's going to be doubly difficult for you because you have 2 and they play off each other, but I thought I'd share my story because it is one that's different from what most moms on here have been successful doing! I wish I could have gone no-cry, but after a few months of trying, it just didn't work. I still had a needy baby!

Good luck! I hope it gets easier for you!

[savepaws]

Little victories like this morning mean nothing when I can't get her to sleep in her crib at all for a nap this afternoon. One step forward, 4 steps back.

I have had a horrible afternoon and so have the girls. I don't even have the energy to type what happened but lets just say it was HELL. God this sucks. I know I could totally do it if I just had one baby but I have two and one always wakes the other up no matter if they are in separate rooms. None of the books have any answers for that other than put them in separate rooms. Ok, that sounds all good and well, but when you live in a freaking shoe box, you can hear EVERYTHING. I had the vacuum on in their room for white noise and I was at the other "end" (if you can call it that) of the house and I could hear their crying over the vacuum. I couldn't work on one baby and leave the other one out in the living room because the baby I left would cry because she was left alone.

Putting their sleepers in their room or in their cribs doesn't make a difference. Putting them down half sleepy doesn't make a difference. PU/PD doesn't help. They FINALLY just fell asleep (started this whole thing at 1pm and its now 4pm) and T is on the floor sleeping on her boppy and D is in her sleeper. There is no way I am going to try moving them to the nursery now that they are FINALLY asleep.

Well that was short lived...they are awake. They should be in good moods after a FIVE minute nap. :bang_head:

[Heywie]

:(

I'm sorry, Danielle! I wish I had some good advice for you, but I don't even know any twins, let alone any mommies of twins!

All I can say is good luck. You can do it! It's okay to feel stressed out, worn out, you name it, but it WILL pass!

Also, be sure you get yourself some rest. If it means letting them cry for a few minutes while you take a breather, DO IT. It's more important that you are healthy and well-rested so you can take care of them!

[flyerso6]

you might want to try, instead of purposly putting them down for a nap, since it seems to be a struggle. Just let them fall asleep on their own while playing or doing whatever it is they do during the day. Alot of the time my babies fall asleep on the floor while playing with their toys. I have never purposly put them in their "bed" to take a nap.

[lize566]

That's great that she feel asleep on her own and in her own crib!! I think it was around the girls age that Zach started waking up around 5ish, wanting to roll and crawl around. I've read that it's common at that age b/c they are learning so many new things.

I basically started this routine with Zach by looking up how many hours he ideally should be awake (based of the Baby Whisperer book) and then tracked it for a couple of days. Then once I had an idea of how long he should be awake, I started putting him in his crib a few minutes before that time was up. For example, if he should be averaging 3 hours of awake time, I would lay him down or read him a book or 2 at 2 hrs. 50 minutes. At first (and sometimes still) he had to be rocked to sleep. It really hasn't been until recently that he's been able to fall asleep on his own. Once we had a fairly consistent routine, I began laying him down more and more awake. Since you obviously can't rock them to sleep, could you use the rock n plays as their rocker, then take them out when they are really drowsy and put her down in her crib. I know that they can still hear from the other room, but maybe have the one you are working on in her rock n play in the bedroom, the other in the living room.

I am just throwing ideas out there, b/c I can't even imagine how frustrated you must be. We had multiple people watching Zach at first, too, so I understand what that is like! Is there anyway you could take a few days off so you can work on this, or just focus on the time you are home and have faith that the rest of the time will work itself out once you get the night times figured out, like Haley said.

Also, at their developmental age, they are going through something called a Wonder Week. Here is a link http://www.thewonderweeks.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=64&Itemid=157

I know that doesn't really give you any answers, but it might help you understand what is going on. There is bound to be something that works for your girls!! I'll be praying for you guys, and if I come up with any other suggestions I will let you know.

And I'm sure you don't want to do CIO (I mean what mother does) but like Haley said, you gotta do what you gotta do, especially if you are risking your own sanity.

[savepaws]

I really appreciate you ladies taking the time to "listen" and give your advice and experiences!!! :hug: Hugs all around!

Sarah, I don't know if they would ever fall asleep playing. They aren't even happy when they are on the floor playing. They are always frustrated by something, so its not like they play nice & quiet on the floor and can just lay back and take a nice little snooze. Everything is a fight with them.

Liz, everything is a crazy mess right now and it sucks, we have reverted back to survival mode because its what we know. Which of course leads us to accidental parenting and its the whole reason we got into this mess in the first place. Oh and my mom was trying to help me by trying to get the girls to go in their cribs. Except she just left in there to CIO for 1-2 hours. I am not ok with that! I mean I know sometimes it comes down to that...but if she's going to try something, we at least need to all be on the same page and doing the same thing. Anyway, she's been doing that all week and she's cracked every time and the girls have not sleeped in their cribs. Did I seriously just say sleeped? LOL Man I'm tired.

Anyway, just putting them into their cribs gets them all worked up. I used to be able to lay them in there and they'd stare at the little jungle thingy and play with toys. Now they just scream. I've tried putting them in there sleepy and even after they've fallen asleep. They are so anti-crib right now. That one morning with Delaney must have been a fluke because every attempt to even just lay them in their cribs has resulting in a hissy fit.

As for your routine, I have a hard time with going off the clock. Because there is two of them I can't keep track of them both in my head so I just go based on their cues and a little bit off the clock. Like I don't look at the clock and think its been exactly 2 hours and 15 minutes so it is nap time. I watch their cues and if its been awhile since their last nap, I know that they could possibly be tired. Maybe I need to chart again. Every time I chart, I get a clearer picture of what is going on.


I haven't heard of the wonder weeks so I'm going to be doing some googling while here at work!

[savepaws]

Oh also, I am not opposed to CIO completely, I just really don't feel it is the right move for them or their personalities. I'm not sure what is though....lol They are DIFFICULT!!!

[firespirit]

That sucks what your mom did. The problem appears to be now that you have to fix that damage too. I don't object to CIO, however it's only supposed to be a few minutes, not an hour or two!

I know you said one crib doesn't work, but have you tried one crib with a separator. Or have you tried the cribs out in the living room maybe?

[f77g4]

Ok this may be totally random and not work but have you thought about maybe trying to take one of them into bed with you and DH one in the spare bed? Just to give them an idea that laying on a mattress is ok.

[lize566]

Would your mom ever be willing to stay a while after you got home or come over on the weekend, or better yet, take one to her house for a little while (or to your SIL's), so you could work with getting one to sleep while the other was out of the house? I know this would be a very temporary solution, but if they napped in their cribs a few times, maybe they will learn that it's not so bad.

And I agree with Carrie-letting them cry like that has probably contributed quite a bit to them not wanting to sleep in their cribs, b/c their trust has been broken, and the best way I've read to overcome that is to not let them CIO for a while, while the trust is being rebuilt.

[flyerso6]

Maybe part of it is the whole laying flat thing. My babies were like that at one point too, but now they would actually rather lay flat and like to sleep on their side or on their belly. They have actually been sleeping in our bed with us more than they haven't, ahh, oh well. Would you be totally opposed to that? (like someone else mentioned) so that they get used to sleeping that way with the comfort of you being right there.

Here is what worked for us on the falling asleep. We would feed them both before we went to bed, or before I went to bed which is between 9 and 10. Put them in their rock n plays in our bedroom. I or both of us also go to bed. All lights are off except a night light so we can sort of see them if need be. Typically if they cried they would just get their pacifier put back in their mouths. They had to cry 4 or 5 times in row (with pacifier being put back in each time), before we would actually get up and feed them. When they did get fed it was a considerably less amount than their day feedings. After a couple weeks of this, they slept through the night and will fall asleep on their own. Now L is in the pack n play and Mackenzie is in her rock n play for most of the night and in our bed for the rest, they eat between 9 - 10 pm and usually are hungry around 5 or 6am which is fine because that is when I get up for work. We have never really done CIO, I am not really a fan of CIO and we haven't needed to even attempt to try it.

Could you let them sleep in your room instead of in the living room?? Maybe they aren't ready to move from their rock n plays. We knew it was time with L because he would get so mad that he couldn't roll over, now the same thing is happening with M.

[savepaws]

I've got to get them out of the rock n play sleepers! They arch their backs when I put them in them like they don't even want to be in them anymore and they can physically climb out of them if they aren't buckled and I don't even feel completely safe with them buckled. But they don't want to be anywhere else either. Right now the girls are so anti-nap that its a fight to get them to sleep ANYWHERE. It doesn't matter if its our arms or their rock n plays, they fight every nap even though they are clearly tired. And they don't sleep deep at all, they nap with their eyes partly open the whole nap! So I can't even make a move or sound or they are up! It's crazy. Right now D is sleeping but has one eye partly open watching me. If I move, her eye follows me. It's actually kind of creepy.

I decided to give the pack n play a try but they of course refuse to sleep in it. They will sometimes lay in it quietly for an hour or so without fussing but I haven't been able to get them to fall asleep in there yet. 3 days in a row and neither one will fall asleep in there. I did hold T until she fell asleep the other day and laid her down and she slept for a half hour. that's the only success I've had yet if you can call it that.

After 2 hours yesterday of trying to get them to fall asleep in the PNP I finally put them in their sleepers and they fought that for an hour and at 4pm they finally went to sleep for an hour. That was their only real nap of the day. Then they had horrible sleep last night. They never slept more than 2 hours in a row and every time they woke up, they were up for at least an hour. So today, I didn't even try the PNP. I'm so consistent, I know. :doh: I put them in their sleepers for naps because they need to sleep. They haven't slept good in two days and all they do is cry when they are awake, its really sad! T went to sleep pretty quickly but D refused to even lay in her sleeper. I laid down with her on the floor, tried holding her, nothing would work. Finally I told her she had no choice, buckled her into the sleeper and let her fuss. but of course that woke T up...ugh. She did finally go to sleep around 2 but has been in and out of sleep so much.

[flyerso6]

honestly if I were you, I'd get rid of the sleepers, or put them at someone else's house, so that you have no choice and neither do they.

We are getting another pnp today just so M doesn't have to use the sleeper anymore. She doesn't seem to enjoy it and I feel awful for making her sleep in it. They would probably sleep in their cribs but I just feel so much better having them in our room. And that way I also know the dogs are getting into their crib with them at night (yes my dogs can jump over their crib rail ahh). I feel like such an idiot for buying another pnp BUT we are going camping a lot this summer and will need it then because there is no way both of them can sleep in the same one.

I'd also work on one at a time, and possibly have them sleep in different rooms so the crying one you are trying to break from the sleeper doesn't wake the other.

[lize566]

I saw your FB post...Yay for long naps!! Where were they sleeping?

[savepaws]

They were in their sleepers. At first I didn't think they'd get more than a half hour nap especially with D's eyes half open but they got a good nap in finally.

We are so confused as to what to do. DH thinks we need to just start putting them in their cribs and making them deal with it. He has never even tried the cribs so he doesn't know what i go through. The one time he tried something different, he put their sleepers in their room after their ped. suggested it and not 5 minutes later, the first peep they made, he was moving them back into the living room saying the dr. didn't know what she was talking about. lol We are the worst at consistency and sticking it out. Its hard to stick it out when your baby is screaming for 2-3 hours and still not have sleeping babies who are way passed over tired.

Maybe we need to try the cribs or PNP at bedtime because they don't fight bedtime the way they fight naptime. So if we did our normal routine and put them down in the crib or pnp, maybe they'd understand its time to sleep? Yeah right, that's just wishful thinking! They don't do anything that we want them to do. Why does this have to be so hard and complicated?

[savepaws]

OMG my babies are CRAZY. Insane!!! They hate their sleepers but that is the only thing they will sleep in. But you can tell they hate going in them and they seem uncomfortable in them. :( They won't fall asleep in their cribs or on the floor or the pack n play. It is a fight to get Tenley to fall asleep any where (including our arms) at this point in her life. She is just GO GO GO GO GOGGOGOGOGO!!!!! All of the time.

I try putting them to sleep in their cribs when they are sleepy or even after they've fallen asleep but as soon as I lay them down their eyes shoot wide open and they scream and scream until we take them out of there and any hopes of a nap is gone. I try the PU/PD (pick up/put down) method and they stop crying as soon as I pick them up but they start screaming bloody murder before I even have them in the crib. So its a little hard to do that method.

I cannot bring myself to let them CIO more than like 5 minutes. Especially because I feel like they get way too worked up. It would be one thing if they were just crying, but they scream and get worked up and they don't self soothe. The thought of letting them go on and on until they pass out from sheer exhaustion just doesn't sit well with me. DH wants me to do it though. Easy for him to say when he expects me to do it all by myself while he is at work and doesn't have to deal with it. He surely won't attempt it during his "shift" with them.

I am at a loss. The rock n play sleepers are not comfortable and becoming dangerous because they can climb out even when strapped in, but I just cannot get them to sleep in anything else. I folded the sleepers up this morning and said we aren't using them. We haven't used them, but they also haven't taken their morning nap - which they were ready for 2 hours ago. They have been screaming and fighting their nap ever since. And now I am at the point where I can't take anymore so they are going over to their Great Aunt and Great Grandmas before I lose my mind. Ugh. When will this ever get better????

Then we have family members, like DH's brother, who don't even have children telling us to just put them in their cribs and make them deal with it. I called DH yesterday and told him to send his brother over here to help me with the girls since he had all the answers. He didn't accept my invitation. I don't judge any one else in how they deal with stuff like this cuz every baby and family is different and has different circumstances. CIO might be the answer for some babies but I don't believe it works for all. Sadly I cannot figure out what does work for these 2.

Oh and they still eat 3 oz every 3 hours and wake up every 2-3 hours at night. They are almost NINE months old. :(

[SkippyNXC]

OK danielle PLEASE don't hate me... but... ur saying you can't figure out what works and CIO seems to be the only thing u haven't really stuck with... i think it may be time despite it being such an awful experience for you... it may be worth just going through a few days of everyone suffering and being absolutely miserable and then maybe it'll click for the girls

i can't say it will 100% work but it sounds like your really at your wits end coming up w/other ideas... however, you need EVERYONES support on this matter... DH, babysitters, etc.

i mean whats the worst that's gonna happen, things will be no worse or better than where they were but at least you tried?

[flyerso6]

They should be eating more than that at once. I think that is what you should start with, get them eating more in one sitting. Mine eat 8 oz 3 to 4 times a day and 2 solids a day. that is it. Are you doing solids at all? I think once you get that figured out sleeping won't be as hard.

But at this point I would try cry it out..... sorry.

[lize566]

Are the mattresses elevated on one end? And I believe Haley was having the same issue with Ollie and she tried holding them on a pillow until they fell asleep, then laying the pillow and everything in the crib (I would think that as soon as he rolled off the pillow she would remove it, but I'm not sure). This way they don't have a sense of pressure change, since they are just laying on the pillow which is going into the crib with them.

Tenley just started crawling, which commonly causes sleep difficulties, but hopefully the novelty will wear off soon and she will start napping again.

Like you said, everyone has to do what works for them as far as methods used to raise their children, and like Nicole said, CIO is a common method that you haven't tried, but I just want throw this out there: if you leave them in their cribs to cry, their crib may become a place that they don't trust, which may do more harm than good. HOWEVER, Nicole is also right in that it may not hurt to try since you can't be worse off than you already are.

[KMS]

I rack my brain trying to think of something/anything that could possibly help you. :bbconfused: I remember feeling like we were never going to get Paisley to sleep more than a few hours at a time. How are y'all getting them to go back to sleep at night? Do they require a bottle to go back down at each wake up? I wonder if they've just come to expect a bottle before going back to sleep and now it's a routine for them. I know that's what happened with Paisley. She would wake up and we would go to her and rock her back to sleep instead of feeding her at every wake up. So stopping all of those feedings was what was the key for us. We were all about gradual...gradually making adjustments and changes so that it wasn't such a shock to her. After a few weeks she started waking up less and less and I think it was because she wasn't expecting milk at every wake up. We still fed her once a night for a while, but that was a far cry from 2 or 3 times. She still had one bottle a night until a month or so ago.

As far as the cribs go, I once remember reading that letting kids have some play time in their cribs during the day can help them associate positive things to the cribs and make sleeping in the crib easier.

[savepaws]

Yes, the girls get bottles when they wake up at night. DH swears they are hungry and says he tries to make them hold out as long as possible. They eat most of their food at night and are too busy to take time to eat during the day. DH won't try anything new and I honestly don't even know where to start if I took over for him. I thought it would be easier if I could transition the girls into their cribs in the day and hoped that we could eventually transition to the cribs at night but nap time is an epic failure. And I have even been known to resort to bottles just to get them to nap. There are two of them and sometimes I just don't know any other way! :( I can't rock one to sleep if the other one is screaming because the screaming one keeps the other one awake. And it doesn't matter if I go to another room because you can still hear everything.

We've messed these girls up so bad and given them so many bad habits and I don't know how to make it better. :( I am so overwhelmed. I research all the time for answers and I get so many good ideas from you all and from my research but I just can't figure out how to apply them to both girls and get results.

They sort of eat solids. I feed them solids 3 times a day but T is the only one that will actually eat. D will have a few bites but mostly just spits everything out and is too interested in trying to get out of her seat and looking around. If I have anything sitting on the table she spends the whole time trying to reach for it. And when the table is empty she just looks around for stuff to grab even though there is nothing there. Even T doesn't eat a full serving each time. A thing of food usually last between 2-3 meals between the both of them.

And as for CIO, I would have to be prepared for 2-3 hours or maybe more of wailing, screaming and crying and by 1-2 hours, they have reached the point of overtireness anyway and refuse to sleep. As of now they cry 2+ hours when I'm in the room with them dong PU/PD, and shush pat and trying to make it a loving, kind transition. Totally abandoning them would likely make them cry longer. I just don't get why THAT would be the answer when they are already screaming and crying during the gentle methods I'm using. I guess my mind just can't process why leaving them alone, afraid, upset is going to help them accept their cribs and sleep all night? Its going to make them so upset until they pass out from exhaustion. How does that teach them to sleep?? I know nothing else is working for me...but that doesn't mean CIO would work either.

[ikkin510]

CIO never really worked for Carter since he would get so worked up that he'd get sick resulting in even more work changing him and his bed. Wish I had more ideas for you too. I had seeing that you are still having the problems with them sleeping all the time.
For the night feedings, now that your hours have unfortunately been cut back, can you take some of the night feedings a bit more to try to change things? Then instead of giving them 3 oz each time they woke up, give them 2oz, then 1 oz. Starting with one of their wake ups at a time. That way you can hopefully ease them off needing some of the feedings so they will sleep more. Then maybe they will eat more during the day time since they get less at night.
You have been trying to change naps and maybe what you need is to try to change the nights to get naps to work.

[Danielle9608]

Danielle I just skimmed this thread so forgive me if someone else has suggested but if you don't want to do CIO have you thought about the pick up put down method. This is not a no cry solution but helps a little with the helpless feeling. Also I wanted to throw my own personal experience in here. I did/do CIO with Averi. I hardly have to anymore though. Honestly cant remember the last time she really fought me going to sleep. I would let her CIO for 10 minutes, if she didn't stop I would go in shhh her and pat her bum for a minute or two and try again. Most time I wouldn't have to go back in at all, her magic number used to be 8 minutes and she would fall asleep.

[KMS]

Don't be so hard on yourself hun! I don't think that it's necessarily bad habits that you've let the girls get in. At first they needed constant feedings through the night and now they don't...so it's not a bad habit but more like you just have to help them figure out what they need now. Our kids are constantly going through different stages and I think one of our most important jobs is to gently help them through those stages and to figure out the next stage.

I have to be honest and tell you that we fought with Paisley's sleeping until I just took over the nights. Chad just would not try anything new even though what was happening wasn't working. Things got better so drastically after that. I absolutely did not feel like it because we had a good system going, but I'm so glad that I did it.

I know that you have such a different situation there with the two of them and I really feel for you!

[flyerso6]

Don't beat yourself up. There are two of them and at times it is more about survival than getting them to do things how you want. I read somewhere (maybe even here) that once they are double their birth weight, there is no physical reason why they can't sleep through the night. I am guessing the bottle just comforts them. What ikkin510 suggested about giving them less oz per feeding at night is how we got L and M to sleep through the night so young. I read it on the back of the shot information sheet we got from the dr., tried it and it worked. I think back then they were eating like 4oz at a time, so at night I gave them 3, then 2, then 1. in just like 2 weeks they didn't need a bottle at night.

Now L will get a bottle at night maybe once a week just because sometimes he wakes up at like 2am and I can't get him back to sleep. But he only gets the bottle after Ive tried lots of other things, rocking, letting him lay in the bed with me, binky, singing etc, and he only gets like 4 oz. He is so active and so small (14% for height and weight) that I think sometimes he may actually be hungry.

Since you feed them so often, what prompts you to feed them? crying? If it were me, I would try to hold off as long as possible, make them start going 4 -5 hours between feedings and eat more oz at once. Do you try more than 3oz, and they just push it out their mouths? I know if I only gave L and M 3oz they would be screaming bloody murder once it was gone. They scream if it is anything less than 7 or 8 oz, they even cry after their solids are gone sometimes. Since you say they seem more interested in other things while eating solids, I would guess they aren't actually hungry.

Good luck!! and if you DH won't do anything different maybe you will just have to take over until you get things how you want them. and even though I suggested trying CIO, if you strongly disagree, then don't do it. But whatever you pick you and DH need to stick with it at least for a few days to see if it works. We haven't had to try CIO, there have been times where it has crossed my mind though.

[savepaws]

Oh man...I thought I had posted an update on how our first night of cribs went but it obviously didn't come through!! Sometimes the post quick reply button doesn't work for me so then I have to hit "go advanced" and then I sometimes forget to actually submit. Booo!!!

Long story, short - DH decided at 1 am Wednesday night/Thursday morning that the girls were going in their cribs. We didn't get much sleep but they slept in their cribs. It was a very rough night but it was progress!!

Here's how last night went:

OMG I am so tired! I haven't gotten sleep for the past 2 nights. The sleep I did get was such a tease. I think I cried as much as the girls last night!! It was awful.

The good news is, they are getting used to their cribs. When they are sleeping they seem more comfortable than they were in the sleepers. They haven't slept in the sleepers since we made the switch to the cribs. So yay for us for sticking with it so far!!! We have had to get them sleepy or asleep before putting them to bed or down for a nap most of the time, but we'll work on that. Right now the goal is getting them comfortable with sleeping in their cribs and that seems to be going well. Better than it was during naps!

The bad news is - they cannot get themselves back to sleep. At all. They have no self soothing skills whatsoever and do not know how to get back to sleep without help. For 8 months DH has been by their side there to stick a paci in their mouth, or a bottle whenever they fussed so they are dependent on someone helping them back to sleep. So that means they wake up every 30-45 minutes and of course at different times so we were awake most of the night. It suuuucked. If we went in there and replaced the paci or rubbed their back, they went right back to sleep for the most part. We did feed them at like 11:30ish and 3ish...which I would like to see at least one of those go away. But it wasn't like we just gave them a bottle every time they cried. And they did eat their whole bottle so they were hungry.

So I'm not really sure where to go from here. We tried giving them time to work it out on their own but eventually it would start to escalate to the point of no return. I don't get how shush-pat or PU/PD would help teach them to go to sleep on their own. Replacing the paci and rubbing their backs was doing the trick last night but that is still us helping them get back to sleep. How do we encourage them to fall back asleep on their own and without our intervention?

I am 32 years old and I have a hard time getting myself back to sleep! Once I'm awake, I'm awake. It can take me up to an hour to fall asleep after being woke up. So of course, by the time I actually fall asleep, the girls are awake & crying again. Its horrible! I don't need someone to help me fall asleep but it sure does take me along time which is extremely frustrating, especially when I'm so beyond exhausted as it is. I can just imagine how they feel.

[KMS]

Oh my gosh, yes, it takes me forever to go back to sleep too. I can only imagine how confused and frustrating it is for our kids! I think the trick that helped us was introducing Paisley to her lovey. We didn't introduce it until about 10 months or so, but I wish that we would have done it sooner! I honestly think it's what soothes her back to sleep. Maybe she doesn't feel so alone? We lay her down at night, she sees her lovey, grabs it and hugs it, and then lays her head down. Some might find that negative because it's still a sort of dependence, but I'm just fine with it. In the morning I'll hear her talking, go in there, and she looks like she's talking and playing with it. That might be something to try.

I am so freaking happy to hear about progress!! That's so great!

[amisteratwisterandme]

I somehow stumbled on a blog today with a mommy of twins who were having the SAME exact issues with her kids. Eating at night, not during the day, waking every 30 minutes or so, napping off and on at odd times, not eating much during the day. She has tried the same things you have done, more food during the day, less at night, schedules, no schedules to no success.

She said that another mommy of multiples told her to do this: If they drink 4 oz. of formula a night, fill the bottle with the 4 oz. of water, but dilute the amount of formula by half. She tried it and within two days her babies were sleeping through the night, eating more during the day and weren't nearly as grumpy. She said the first morning her girls finished off 8 ounces each. Now I don't know how old her girls are, but they are just learning to crawl so I am thinking about the same age ad T & D.

[savepaws]

We give them their "babies" and they like to hold them when they are going to sleep but they don't usually grab them unless we hand them to the girls. I'll keep trying though, maybe they will get more attached. They have been hysterical since I got home. Poor things are just exhausted. I finally got T to go to sleep and she's sleeping in her crib. I'm totally loving that I can go put them in there and they don't scream!! D's teeth are really bugging her and I can't get her to sleep. I really wish I could get her to take a nap so I could get some sleep myself but that isn't going to happen. By the time she's asleep I know T will be getting up. I need sleep so bad though. I'm running on about 4 hours total in 2 days.

[savepaws]

I somehow stumbled on a blog today with a mommy of twins who were having the SAME exact issues with her kids. Eating at night, not during the day, waking every 30 minutes or so, napping off and on at odd times, not eating much during the day. She has tried the same things you have done, more food during the day, less at night, schedules, no schedules to no success.

She said that another mommy of multiples told her to do this: If they drink 4 oz. of formula a night, fill the bottle with the 4 oz. of water, but dilute the amount of formula by half. She tried it and within two days her babies were sleeping through the night, eating more during the day and weren't nearly as grumpy. She said the first morning her girls finished off 8 ounces each. Now I don't know how old her girls are, but they are just learning to crawl so I am thinking about the same age ad T & D.

Interesting! Thanks for sharing Jan!!!

[flyerso6]

Im not putting that idea down, but I am not sure I would dilute their formula, the labels all say make sure you mix the correct amount. too much formula = dehydration, and too much water = not getting nutrients plus too much water can be bad, even for adults.

But YAY for them sleeping in their cribs!! we didn't have a problem getting them out of their sleepers but I think they are so much more comfortable now on a flat surface. Can they put their own paci's back in their mouths? L can, I am sure M can but she isn't as dependent on it so once it falls out she could care less. L does LOVE his blankets though. He has to sleep with a blanket or he wouldn't ever fall asleep. Maybe you should find something that helps sooth them like that. But I am sooo glad you are making progress!!!!

[amisteratwisterandme]

Im not putting that idea down, but I am not sure I would dilute their formula, the labels all say make sure you mix the correct amount. too much formula = dehydration, and too much water = not getting nutrients plus too much water can be bad, even for adults.

I didn't think about that, but I am sure that since they ate twice as much for the morning feeding, there was no problem, but good to keep an eye out for!

[lize566]

Hooray for progress!! Zachary just recently got to where he puts himself to sleep. How we got there was 1) keeping like 4 pacis in his crib so he can find one 2) he developed an attachment to a small Teddy bear (I guess we didn't have much to do with this, and it could be pure coincidence) and now it's his blankness instead 3) and we did the shy/pat or pu/pd depending in the cry. We still have to do pupd more than I would like in the early am. I think that the reason those things work is that it is gradually making them less and dependent on you to fall asleep...first they need to be held, then just patted, eventually maybe just to hear your voice or sense your presence, then finally not at all. Does that make sense?

[savepaws]

Well this has become a complete disaster. They literally will spend all night crying in their cribs and nothing we do even could calm them down. Picking them up doesn't help, they just scream in our arms. Shush pat doesn't help calm them because they are so worked up. Letting them CIO doesn't work. They would go on and on all night and they get so upset that it is honestly too cruel to let them be in that state. They have become so freaking overtired and sleep deprived that they now seem to have insomnia. They got to the point where they wouldn't go to sleep at all, not even in our arms they were that overtired. Saturday they did not nap - at all. They were awake for over 12 hours without so much as a cat nap and they screamed in their cribs from the time we put them to bed at 8 until 2 am. We tried everything and nothing would calm them or help them to sleep. :( Finally it got to the point where we couldn't continue to put them through that so we put them in their sleepers. They had a big day coming up on Sunday, their baptism and we needed them to get some sleep, so finally at 2 am, we swaddled them and put them in the rock n play sleepers and they slept pretty much the rest of the night.

I had hoped after getting caught up on some sleep that we could try cribs again. Last night they fought going to sleep (in our arms!). Their normal bedtime is 8pm and they usually go right to sleep but ever since we started cribs, they've been wide awake well past 10 pm and when they finally fell asleep, we put them in their cribs. There is no point in putting them in their cribs sleepy but awake because all hell breaks loose when they realize they are in their cribs! DH and I went back to our usual shifts for the night, so I could get caught up on some sleep and I woke up and they were in their sleepers. There is no way a person can do it alone so I understand why they weren't in their cribs - he's got to get sleep too. But if we tag team it and work together, neither one of us gets any sleep because they are honestly awake pretty much every 20-30 minutes, all night long. We can't survive like that, especially when it takes me forever just to fall asleep.

So I don't know what to do. :(

FAIL.

[Danielle9608]

Gosh Danielle I am so sorry that this isn't working out! I wish I had some advice for you! Have you called your pediatrician for advice? The only other thing I could suggest and I'm not really sure how helpful this would be, is let them fall asleep in the rockers and then move them to the crib.

[savepaws]

What in the heck is going on? The babies are like energizer bunnies until like 10pm now! They used to go to sleep right at 8pm every night. I wonder if the fact that the sun is still up at freaking 8pm is affecting them? I may need to make some curtains that will block out the light.

We still try and put them in their cribs after we get them to sleep in the evening and see how long they will stay in them, but we aren't fighting them on the issue right now. They don't sleep when we push it and I just can't have them not sleeping. Even when they do sleep, its not good sleep and its fitful and only lasts about 2 hours at a time. So we are just trying to ease them into it.

They won't nap more than a half hour at a time. I can't find a good place for them to sleep. They won't sleep in their cribs but they also hate their sleepers. They can completely get out of them even while buckled in, which is not safe because they would just obviously fall to the floor. They will nap in the car but they wake as soon as I bring them in the house, even if I carry them in their carriers. I've tried the floor but I think its too hard. Tenley was awake at 5 am and I brought her crib mattress out here and she's been sleeping on it for quite awhile now. We'll see how long that lasts though!

It's just sooo frustrating. At 9 months old they should be sleeping more than 2 hours at a time. We have gotten through all these months thinking that things would be better by now. If they aren't better by now, who says they will ever be better??

[f77g4]

I'm sorry Danielle!

I wish I had some advice to offer.

[savepaws]

I put a crib mattress on the living room floor yesterday and they took 2 hour naps, both in the a.m. and p.m.!!! I made DH try them at bedtime but he gave up on them after 2 hours. The girls didn't go to bed til 10:30!! I just don't know what is up with that. I guess they are too busy to sleep. I went to bed at like 10 and my hubby let me sleep til 6 am!!! I slept sooo good and it felt good to sleep in an extra hour. The girls were wide awake when I got up though which just wears me out because I kind of like to have a little time to just wake up and get going before having to jump right into mommy mode. They are already down for a nap, it probably won't last long though since its so early. It's raining here, and I just wanna curl up on the couch and sleep too but they never let me nap, so I don't usually bother trying anymore. lol

[lize566]

Any repeat performances with the mattresses on the floor? If so, perhaps they still aren't familiar enough with their rooms, therefore won't sleep or are too interested in everything in a semi-new environment. Zach is still that way at my mom's, even though he's been there hundreds of times.

[flyerso6]

Just a random idea.. you may already do this. Maybe during the day take them to their room and play with them in their room. Maybe that will help get them familiar with their room. Also you could set them in their cribs when they aren't tired just for a few minutes. Like while you're changing one put the other in their crib. I do that a lot. Or while you're giving one a bath put the other in their crib, then switch. (unless you've figured out how to bathe both at the same time, if you have I am jealous!!) Maybe give them a toy to play with and eventually they might realize, hey this isn't so bad after all.

[savepaws]

I have continued to use the mattress on the floor for naps. Problem is that I have to usually get them to sleep by holding them. I have to hold them so they can start to drift off. As long as there aren't any disturbances (dogs barking, people coming over, etc.) they will sleep about 1.5-2 hours. Lately they've had a lot of disturbances and haven't gotten more than 45 minutes.

We do go play in their room and they play in their cribs. It only takes about 2 minutes before they start like realizing where they are and its like a panicky cry. I try and show them that its ok and give them their fave toys, but they just cry until I pick them up. They are ok if we play on the floor though.

Dh still has them sleep in their sleepers and he still swaddles them. I sometimes wonder if letting them sleep with me in the bed would be the answer. I don't think there would be room for all 4 of us though, its only a Queen sized bed. And do I really want to start a new bad habit?? Probably not, and that's why I haven't done it yet.

Ugh...its just so frustrating.

[f77g4]

Danielle, have you read the book Teach Your Baby How to Sleep? Apparently its good for newborns through childhood.

I just saw someone post it on kijiji here for $5 and I would be willing to buy it for you and mail it to you at no cost to you if you were interested.

Let me know.

[savepaws]

Nope I haven't read that book. It sounds interesting though! You are so nice to offer to do that!

[f77g4]

I've contacted the person so I'll see if they still have it and hopefully I'll get that to you this week if she does. If she still has it, I'll PM you for your address.