Not sure what to say...

[Fishlips]

I haven't been posting here much lately, I really love this forum and I haven't made many friends but I suspect I will find a lot of support here.

My fiance (maybe) and I handle money in polar opposite ways. I am very diligent with my money/bills, I actively pursue a financially secure future through retirement funds, savings and sound investments. Lyle does not. He is in debt ($50k +), he pays his bills at the point when something is going to be shut off or taken away. He obviously has no savings. It has been a point of friction between us our entire relationship. He says I nag and bring it up too much, I say he has shown zero intent of paying it off and it really bothers me. In Washington state upon marriage debt becomes communal.

His mother and I have a decent relationship, she lives in Cali so it's hard to just hang out with her. She loves me and would love for us to have a close relationship. I recently asked her for advice on how I can approach this subject with him and get some progress made. I was very honest with how it made me feel, and my thoughts on it, but I stayed very much on topic (I didn't nit pick about other things that may have or current bug me, nobody's perfect). She did the same thing, she was very honest with what she knew/knows about his financial situation. We have corresponded about 3 times. Until I talked with her I only knew a fraction of the story and about a fraction of the debt.

He took it upon himself to pry through my emails. I had put the emails in a folder (that had no relation to what the subject was) so I could keep our conversation private and avoid an adverse reaction from Lyle. I have never given him a reason to think I was cheating on him. I am 100% honest with where I am, who I'm with, and what I'm doing. I have nothing to hide from him...with exception of those emails, or birthday surprises, good stuff.

He was/is not happy. The email snooping happened earlier today. He feels like I betrayed his trust, like I was scheming behind his back with his mom. He does not have the best relationship with his mom, but it was amicable. He sent text messages to his mom saying things along the lines of "WTF!?! Why are you guys scheming behind my back? I don't want to speak to you, as far as I'm concerned things are through with Sara and I." Oh and she's going into major neck surgery tomorrow. She is forwarding these messages to me. He checked into a hotel and isn't speaking with me.

There are several issues I'm dealing with here. First, I believe he was honest by omission. Which in my mind is lying. The honesty was in only revealing part of his debt, part of his situation, and prying in my email. Second, I don't understand the overreaction. I can only liken it to he got his hand caught in the cookie jar.

I love him dearly, he has many amazing qualities. He treats me very well, and does very nice things for me. I just don't know how to get over this issue.

Does anyone have any thoughts? Opinions? Advice?

Oh and to make matters worse, I just purchased a house that I thought he would be helping me with the mortgage. Our offer isn't contingent on an inspection so I may be putting myself in a horrid situation, or lose my earnest money ($2000). We were suppose to move in June 23.

[BnB]

Whoa, this is something that NEEDS to be worked out before you marry him, or you are responsible for 1/2 the debt he made

is it creditcards?

what about him filing bankruptcy before the wedding?

and I don't blame you one bit for talking with his mom

[Danielle9608]

Wow all I can say is I am so sorry! I don't think you were wrong at all. Only advice I could offer is; give it time. He needs to calm down and then realize that his debt doesn't just effect him.
We are going through a similar situation with my BIL right now. My MIL cosigned on his student loans and now he is close to defaulting on them and she is worried about losing her home. DH and I are looking into purchasing it to get it out of her name so she wont lose it. Every time someone tries to bring up the money situation to him he flips out and walks out.
Maybe once he is more calmed down you too can look into a debit management program. Best of luck to you!

[FFC]

While I can understand his frustration - feeling like you were going behind his back, it was obviously justified because you found out information that can affect you BIG TIME if you were to marry him.

HE was in the wrong for not being honest with you. It's important for a couple to be aware of such issues (such as debt) before marrying. I would be royally PISSED if I found out after we married that Matt had $50k in debt from before I met him. Even if it ticked him off, at least you found out now and not after the wedding.

Hang in there, and good luck with him!

[savepaws]

I'm really sorry you are going through this. I don't think you were in the wrong at all. I don't have any good advice to offer but I do hope you guys can work it out.

[firespirit]

Ok, so while Washington is a community property state, debts and assets aquired prior to marriage don't automatically become community debt or assets.

My husband is not responsible for my student loans, however if I don't pay them that will cause a problem in the marriage.

That isn't to say the two of you don't need to work this out soon. Are there any other contingencies in the house paperwork?

[WebLady]

I am sorry you are having to deal with this :hug:

This is a big issue and he should not have kept it from you; if you are in a long term and committed relationship and getting married then you should know everything about this person, including his debt which can affect your future.

I certainly wouldn't marry him with all that debt, especially if your state would make you responsible upon marriage. But I would get some clarification on that.

I had a very small fraction of debt related to my ex-husband and DH said he didn't want to get married until I worked it out ... I am not even sure it would have been an issue with him after marriage. But I ended up filing bankruptcy over it.

So yeah regardless of the states laws on the debt issue, he needs to get a handle on his finances and his debt. Lots of people have debt, but $50+k sounds like an awful lot; how old is he, what did he do to get into this mess?

Do you really want to marry someone that is not responsible with money? Does he expect you to help him pay off his debts? How will this affect your future if you do marry him? And I would think it will get worse if he doesn't change his habits. I would think you would end up resenting him for you having to work so hard for your future and him not contributing or caring.

And then the issue of snooping and over reacting; that is a personality flaw IMPO and a sign of immaturity. He upset he got caught in a lie and you got his mother involved. Instead of facing the facts he is running away and blaming others ... will he act this way in other instances too?

I would give him some time to cool off and maybe you two can talk calmly about it and come up with a plan to work on the debt as well as your relationship. If he is willing to throw away your relationship over this then it is probably for the best anyway.

Good luck; all the best to you :flower: :hug:

P.S. Do you want to move this to the private forum?

[firespirit]

First, I totally agree with weblady.

I wanted to provide some links to help sort out community property. Plus, I hate to say it but if he's not really responsible, you might want to talk to a lawyer to see if signing a pre-nup would help so that in the worst case he doesn't claim your retirement savings if you two were to get divorced.

One page talks about getting joint accounts to make things easier for right of survivorship, but if he's in that much debt, this might be a case where you want to keep them as separate as possible, and why I really suggest you talk to a lawyer.

Loosing your earnest money is very little compared to not being able to make a house payment and having to foreclose later on down the road. But be sure to talk to a lawyer to make sure that's all you lose in the event you don't buy the house.

http://www.wsba.org/media/publications/pamphlets/marriage.htm

http://www.avvo.com/legal-guides/ugc/community-property-community-debt-separate-debt-washington-state

http://www.nolo.com/article.cfm/pg/2/objectId/70F6390D-B251-4CA7-A0B734844FB69A31/catId/F251EA55-13A9-4EE0-85D21CEB27636030/309/298/ART/

[firespirit]

Lots of people have debt, but $50+k sounds like an awful lot; how old is he, what did he do to get into this mess?

BTW, I just wanted say, while that does sound like a lot, it's not uncommon anymore for college graduates to have over 30K in student loans. (I've actually got over 100K in student loans alone, but that paid for college and pretty much supported me, my ex and my son through 10 years of college...)

[WebLady]

BTW, I just wanted say, while that does sound like a lot, it's not uncommon anymore for college graduates to have over 30K in student loans. (I've actually got over 100K in student loans alone, but that paid for college and pretty much supported me, my ex and my son through 10 years of college...)
Ah, that makes sense; I didn't think of that ;)

[gwenshack]

Wow. I'm so sorry to hear you're dealing with all of this. There's a reason that money and finances is often a major factor in marriages that don't work out. It seems so silly, but when you two are on opposite sides of the fence on this topic there are bound to be numerous problems.

I, like you, am insanely responsible and take bill paying, saving, and a lack of debt very seriously. DH had a crazy amount of debt - a lot of it stupid debt too - when I met him. I basically told him that we couldnt live together until he paid off all the debt he had, save for student loans. It took several years, but eventually he did just that. He loved me enough to not make me sink in the waters of his debt, which I certainly appreciated. He knew I would never marry him if he had debt.

I wish you all the best!

[Nekochanpurr]

I'm sorry you are going through this. :( To be honest though, i feel as though you did nothing wrong. I hope your FH wakes up and realizes you were only trying to help him and your relationship out!

[lilmsjess]

i'm really sorry you're going through this.....i guess with me and fh i never worried about it, because when we started looking to buy me a car, i started pulling both of our credit reports(with his perm. of course)...and i've always stayed on top of them...heck, i know stuff before he does lol...and maybe it's just because i've had such horrible luck with men, it seems to me, like he thought he could bury it or take care of it, or maybe it would all magically go away....

however, as depressing as it is, if you do work things out, i have to agree with the poster about a possible pre-nup...b/c in that case, it's not just retirement, etc...it's your house :(

it'd be horrible for you 2 to get married, something should happen, and while you're helping pay this off, he gets half of everything you have, when he pretty much brought nothing into the marriage to begin with.....

i really do hope you guys get this sorted out, and i hope it all works out for the best.:hug:

[Fishlips]

No I don't want this moved to a private forum (thanks for offering though). Yes I feel like the rawest part of my soul is being exposed to the world, but on the flip side, any other girl who is in this same situation needs to feel it's ok to confront him, and or not feel alone.

His debt is in several different arenas. One is collections, this includes unpaid gym memberships, unpaid electrical bills, unpaid medical bills, etc. The majority of his collections are small sums, under $400. With the exception of a car he couldn't afford, the only reason the car wasn't repoed was the lease ran out before they got fed up. That single collection is about $15,000.

The second part really doesn't affect him in the traditional sense, it is money he owes his mom. That sums about $29k. She supported him while he tried a very unstable career. She supported him on the promise that he would pay her back. Which raises a whole nother issue. If this is how he treats his mom how will he treat me one day. I work two jobs to pay bills while he works part time? Or he just feeds off my hard work eating bonbons while I bloody my fingers working?

ZERO of his debt is student loans, which I would be completely understanding of. My sister will walk away from school with nearly $100k in debt but she'll have skills for the rest of her life.

And mind you, if it were student loans he probably would have told me about them. But he hid the majority of his debt from me.

I could have addressed this issue in different ways. I probably should have. I feel at such a loss. I feel numb and I feel defeated.

We have decided right now this relationship won't work. I still love him dearly and I wish he would have stayed open to conversation. His ego and pride are probably extremely damaged right now, and he's shutting down. Well, he IS shut down right now.

We could still be great together, but right now we won't be. He has a lot of grow to do, and so do I. I need more balance from work and money and life and fun. But he needs the same balance in the opposite direction.

Money SHOULDN'T be such a huge issue, but it IS. And he doesn't feel it is.

Now I'm just rambling. I'm out of points, but I would love to further this discussion, any and all opinions, criticisms, support, thoughts, advice and questions are welcomed.

Oh and FYI, his mom's surgery went well. She's ok, according to her fiance, she really loopy and asks every question about 6 times, but otherwise fine.

[gwenshack]

I know this sucks for you right now, but I think you are doing the best thing for yourself right now. Let him sort out his own mess. If he feels that being with you is a priority (which it certainly should be) he would pick up another job and start working on chipping away at this debt. He should be willing to prove to you that this phase of his life - the irresponsibility phase - is over and done with and that you're not going to have to spend the rest of your life worrying about whether or not you can go in a Blockbuster video because they may or may not be out to get you because he never returned Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure ten years ago.

Like I said in my other post, my DH had really stupid debt - past due cable bills from a place he hadn't lived in year, aforementioned Blockbuster (but I have no idea if Bill and Ted were involved) - stupid stuff - and then there were the unpaid parking tickets that resulted in the impounding of his car, but that didn't matter because he had lost his driver's license because he hadn't paid his moving violations. Then the power would go out because he hadn't paid that bill and then his phone would get shut off for the same reason. Let's not even mention the cold shower or two I had to take when I'd go over there because he had failed to pay the gas company. It was insanity. But eventually he rid himself of all of that (again, save for student loans) because he started taking things seriously.

No, money shouldn't be a huge issue, and if he didn't have any but lived within his means you wouldn't have a problem. But when his money problems are going to become a drain on your life, you have every right to choose if that's a situation you'd want to be in. Just like if he was a drug addict or had any other lifestyle issue - you're not just choosing to be with him, you're also choosing to be with the lifestyle.

The bottom line is this - Love, in and of itself, is necessary but it is also wholly insufficient. If that's all there is, and there is no logic, a relationship is doomed to fail anyway.

And now I'm rambling. I'm sorry you're dealing with this - please feel free to vent all you want to us. That's what we're here for. :)

[Thalia_themuse]

:hug: no offence to your ex-FH but I would personally be annoyed if my ex showed up on a forum to say he didn't want to say anything against me but say that I was making a big deal out of nothing... to say something and imply another.

Hon, he says he was prepared to talk, but from what you've said he wasn't... is he being deceitful? He said he left because of other reasons and seems to think he is toally justified etc. He *says* his debt is an issue, but doesn't seem to think any of this is such a big deal?!!? Give me a break!

If there were such huge problems as he says, why did he propose to you? And why did he conceal his debt from you, and be prepared to suck you down into his debt?!?!

:heart: I feel for you hon, I really do. From what I've read though, I think he is in the wrong.

[WebLady]

I am sorry all this has happened :hug:

Per your request, I have removed the offending post and those in reply to it and moved the post back to the open forum so that others may learn from it. However, I think it best to close the topic to further replies at this point.

I am sure I speak for us all when I wish you all the best :flower: