Internet Ordainment?

[starsthrumysoul]

My fiancee and I have talked about wanting someone that we know to perform the ceremony. We live in NY. What are the rules with getting a friend of ours ordained? Will an internet ordainment fly, or does she have to do something else?

[wedbyjean]

Getting ordained online is easy. The person needs to go to Universal Life Church (http://www.themonastery.org/?gclid=CO2Sz47DtZQCFR6gnAodKCObUA).

Whether they will need to do anything else to be able to perform wedding ceremonies depends on your state. Some states do not require anything more than proof of ordination. Others require the person to also register in that state afterh they receive ordination. And some may not recognize the online ordination at all. You'll need to check with the office of the Secretary of State within your state to find out their rules on this.

[RevMatty]

This minister is ordained through Universal Ministries (http://universalministries.com) and Universal Life Church (http://ulc.net)


But my best answer is to check with the local registar on laws. I know my county was easy to file my ordination, but some counties here, want a bunch of paper work. And also I do know some states are trying not to reconize "internet" ordination, because they feel that they are not "real" churches.
I'm in one of them, got court next Thursday, as to the legality of my ordination. However Supreme Court rulings do favor me and anyone that gets a online ordination through the internet, as long as someone on the otheride generates the ordination, meaning when you put in your name, someone must review and fill out the paper work, can't be an automated computer doing it.

The to links are above are your best bet.

[Whitewater]

My feeling is that though it's legal, online ordination really ought to be reserved for those (like myself) who don't have an organized church to have a church ordination done.

I used to really really not be ok with online ordination because I felt that it devalued the people who went to seminary school and studied for years and worked in real, on-the-ground churches, but having learned more about online ordination, I don't feel that strongly anymore. The only things you can do as an ordained minister are conduct funerals and weddings, and work in a church as a lay minister. *shrug* I know a lot of people who got ordained via the Internet and none of them have mis-used their title or tried to do more with it than they're allowed. Certainly they're not working as pastors in a church or counselors at a clinic, or whatever, and virtually all of them have spiritual beliefs that just don't concur with the main established churches in their areas.

We ourselves are getting married by somebody who received his ordination online -- BUT he works with his religious community and he really believes and has faith, he's taking it as seriously as I believe you need to in order to make your ordination at all valid.

As a matter of fact, I myself am considering getting ordained online myself, though not through Universal Life Church. There's a spiritual community in South Dakota called First Nation Church that offers the same sort of services, but you become a minister in *their* organization, which lends a bit more credibility. I'm also looking to become a certified pastoral counselor and use that certification to start my own business counseling others, but that's different in that it's an actual class with an actual test you have to take in order to be certified, etc.

I am a Celtic Christian and unfortunately there's no Celtic Christian Church of America gatherings in my city, possibly in my state. So I'm on my own (and according to the CCCA, that's not a problem) -- becoming ordained and starting my own CCCA group is a worthy goal to have, I think.

I hope becoming ordained online remains possible. It's not as though you can apply for the same jobs or do anything, really, that a graduated seminary/theological student can do, and it may help those like me who belong to a religion that's not part of the Big Three.


Whitewater (Rev. Matty, can you PM me and tell me more about this in MN? I want to make sure my marriage STAYS legal!)

[starsthrumysoul]

My issue is that I'm atheist, and FH isn't really religious at all, so to us it doesn't matter that we might be de-valuing someone who went to seminary school (no offense). To us, it's important that someone important to us make our union official, no religion involved.

[SerendipityCrafts]

Not a rebuttel but anyone who is ordained (be it via the internet or via the traditional way) may bring some religion to the service. That's what it's all about after all - ordination I mean.

I don't suppose you know a Justice of the Peace do you? Hmmmmm I don't know the ins and outs of it but how about getting married on a boat and letting the captain perform the ceremony?

[acidcookie]

Both FH and I are atheists too and will be having a civil ceremony so I understand your needs. Some states allow notaries to marry you. Is that a possibility there? By using an ordained minister through one of those organizations you are still using a religious service though. Our town's mayor is marrying us.

[Whitewater]

My issue is that I'm atheist, and FH isn't really religious at all, so to us it doesn't matter that we might be de-valuing someone who went to seminary school (no offense). To us, it's important that someone important to us make our union official, no religion involved.

Yeah -- I get that, but it's not 'seminary' per se that's the important part here.

What has more value? Somebody who went through highschool, got accepted into an institute of higher learning, got their BA degree after 5 years of hard work, then went through another few years of professional training under a senior mentor, then went *back* to school for their Masters .. . . . . or somebody who printed off a free certificate online? At home?

That, to me, is the issue. It's along the same lines as somebody who worked in the ranks of, say, a union position (like, a carpenter), graduated highschool, worked as an apprentice, spent years in the rank and file, and then was set aside because somebody happened to join the union with a degree. I know it happens. In one of my particular unions, (I really ought to be joining two, because of my skills) you can quite literally buy your way in if you have enough money without knowing a dang thing about the job. And the people who have no skills but lots of money are looked down on, considerably, by the people who worked their way up, became respected, and *then* paid in to become full members.

*shrug* To me, it doesn't matter whether you're taking a religious position in society or you're trying to become a member of IATSE (one of my unions) or any other job in the world. If you can get the same credentials by printing off a slip of paper online, instead of paying your dues and achieving through blood, sweat, tears, sacrifice, time, and effort, then sort of by its very nature, your slip of paper is not only devaluing, but also undermining the regular people who did the real, hard, honest work to get there.

Of course, now that there's better (and clearer) definitions of what precisely you can do and can't do with your slip of paper that you found online for free and printed at home, I don't think it's as much of an issue any more, at least not as much as it once was. Online ministers now have very clear limits and boundaries, and the people who worked and sweated for their degrees don't have to worry any more about internet upstarts taking their jobs.


Whitewater

[starsthrumysoul]

[quote=Whitewater;299820]Yeah -- I get that, but it's not 'seminary' per se that's the important part here.

What has more value? Somebody who went through highschool, got accepted into an institute of higher learning, got their BA degree after 5 years of hard work, then went through another few years of professional training under a senior mentor, then went *back* to school for their Masters .. . . . . or somebody who printed off a free certificate online? At home?

I guess I can understand your point of view. But to me, it makes no difference in the least. I don't believe in God or religion, so what should I care if someone else wants to devote their life (and work) to it? I honestly couldn't care less. I mean, good for them for finding their calling, but to me the only difference that it makes is that THAT person (who went through the schooling and everything) isn't an important person to me, while someone close to me who spends 5 minutes on the internet to get ordained IS important. I'm really not expecting you to see my point - I'm asking you to stop trying to get me to see yours. Agree to disagree.

[Rainbow Brite]

I don't see anything wrong with online ordination if what ya'll say is true - that all it allows is the ability to do weddings/funerals. Sounds a lot like becoming a notary.

We didn't want religion in our ceremony either, so we got a Unitarian Universalist minister (a very liberal denomination) and asked that he leave religion completely out of the ceremony. He was happy to oblige :)

[fireprincess2009]

Is it that you want this particular friend to marry you for some reason? Otherwise,....
To be valid, a marriage ceremony must be performed by any of the individuals specified in Section 11 of the New York State Domestic Relations Law. These include:

the mayor of a city or village;
the former mayor, the city clerk or one of the deputy city clerks of a city of more than one million inhabitants;
a marriage officer appointed by the town or village board or the city common council;
a justice or judge of the following courts: the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit, the U.S. District Courts for the Northern, Southern, Eastern or Western Districts of New York, the New York State Court of Appeals, the Appellate Division of the New York State Supreme Court, the New York State Supreme Court, the Court of Claims, the Family Court, a Surrogates Court, the Civil and Criminal Courts of New York City (including Housing judges of the Civil Court) and other courts of record;
a village, town or county justice;
a member of the clergy or minister who has been officially ordained and granted authority to perform marriage ceremonies from a governing church body in accordance with the rules and regulations of the church body;
a member of the clergy or minister who is not authorized by a governing church body but who has been chosen by a spiritual group to preside over their spiritual affairs;
other officiants as specified by Section 11 of the Domestic Relations Law.

[Katiegirl]

My issue is that I'm atheist, and FH isn't really religious at all, so to us it doesn't matter that we might be de-valuing someone who went to seminary school (no offense). To us, it's important that someone important to us make our union official, no religion involved.


We're in the exact same boat. A good friend of mine from college got ordained online about two years ago. He is very excited to "marry" us, and I know he'll perform the ceremony exactly how we would like him to.

[WebLady]

Getting a random friend or family member a quicky internet ordination just to do your wedding is not really necessary. IMO one should only get ordained for religious reasons or if they want to start a business doing wedding ceremonies, but that is just me.

If you don't want a religious ceremony there are other ways to go about finding a non-clergy officiate. In many areas a Judge can legally marry you, or even a Notary is some areas.

Contact your local probate or magistrate court and find out who can legally marry you in your state/county and all and go from there. Even if you can't find a non clergy member, there are some non denominational clergy members that will officiate weddings not mentioning religion.

Even with religious ceremonies, you usually talk to your officiate about what you want and don't want.

Good luck!

*There is no need to get anyones religion or lack there of too much into the conversation here*

[sandy03]

I agree with everyone that says to double check with your state courts, but from what I can tell I don't see why internet ordination wouldn't be accepted. I'm in the process of being ordained in the United Methodist Church and when it's all said and done I will get a certificate of ordination (not unlike the ones that you print when you get ordained online) and that is the only piece of paper I will have to "prove" that I'm a legit minister. The only catch would be to make sure that whatever internet ordination organization (I'm a little cautious of calling them "church") is recognized by your state.

[RevMatty]

I know this post is a little over a year old, however after some extensive research, done by myself, I felt the need to better my previous post.......

First off I will quote the Constitution: Amendment 1 of the United States Constitution
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;.......
Amendment 14 of the United States Constitution
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of laws.

Although the First Amendment states that the rights of the citizens of the United States may not be abridged by laws made by Congress, the United States Supreme Court has interpreted it as applying more broadly. Despite the the first sentence of the Constitution reserving all legislative power and authority to Congress the courts have held that the rights mentioned in the First Amendment are protected from infringement by all federal government, including the executive and judicial branches.
And just as recently as the 20th century the Supreme Court has ruled that the Fourteenth Amendment protects the citizens from infringement or laws abridging the First Amendment rights, by state and local governments.

Now here is a federal court case that makes online ordinations legal: In 1974 the ULC sued the Federal Government in response to a challenge against the tax exempt status of the ULC. The ULC is a non-traditional, non-Christian church based in California. The following are excerpts from the court when it ruled in favor of the ULC. Even though the ULC is not a Christian organization, the ruling of the courts have been a great assistance to the rest of us.

"Certainly the ordination of ministers and the chartering of churches are accepted activities of religious organizations... The fact that the plaintiff distributed ministers' credentials and Honorary Doctor of Divinity certificates is of no moment. Such activity may be analogized to mass conversions at a typical revival or religious crusade."

Here is the part of the decision which guarantees the legality of your ordination: "Neither this Court, nor any branch of this Government, will consider the merits or fallacies of a religion. Nor will the Court compare the beliefs, dogmas, and practices of a newly organized religion with those of an older, more established religion. Nor will the Court praise or condemn a religion, however excellent or fanatical or preposterous it may seem. WERE THE COURT TO DO SO, IT WOULD IMPINGE UPON THE GUARANTEES OF THE FIRST AMENDMENT." (United States District Court E.D. California Civ. No. S-1954)

However there is a catch. A computer can not ordain you. This means that when you submit your application, is it a computer generated ordination, or does someone on the other end ordain you.
So if you do get ordained online, you need to make sure that the church you chose has someone that will review the information, log it into there files, and issue you the ordination. It can not be a computer program that does this, it has to be a real human.
Secondly, some churches will also issue you an email stating you are ordained. In most states you will need a certified copy from the church as proof of such. Just like your marriage license, without the certified copy you can't change your ID. This doesn't mean your not married, they just want legal proof you are. So contact them for a certified copy and all the other paperwork your state may require to prove you are ordained by them.

[allielaurent]

I'm ordained via internet. It was something I did as a teenager just for kicks. I can legally perform weddings, funerals, baptisms, and even exorcisms. Weird, huh?

[2dBride]

Just be careful. You can perform weddings in some but not all states (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/05/fashion/05marry.html?_r=1). (I'm pretty sure there is not a lot of state regulation of exorcisms, though.)

[RevMatty]

Just be careful. You can perform weddings in some but not all states (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/05/fashion/05marry.html?_r=1). (I'm pretty sure there is not a lot of state regulation of exorcisms, though.)
Very good point.
However here's the key to most states......You must be active in a ministry as a minister.
Now weddings may be a civil contract, but one could argue it's also spiritual/religious, and he actively does religious weddings, for his respected ministry. And I'm sure the respected ministry that ordained him would agree and argue such in court to protect them selves and the minister.
Many federal court rulings have upheld "internet" ordained ministers, rights. And under federal law, such must be honored by the state. Those that don't honor them is considered to be un-constitutional.
IMO, some of these states are treading on thin ice, with their laws, regarding clergy and marriages, especially how they word the law.
If I was the minister, I would argue, that weddings are a spiritual part of life and that's what my ministry is based on. Any judge in his right mind that knows the constitution, would favor him/her.

[2dBride]

Typically, the way they do it is to say that you have to be a minister of a congregation that holds regular services, etc. to perform marriages. Thus, it is not the Internet status of the ordination that causes the issue, but the nature of the work. So long as this is uniformly applied (e.g., not permitting retired ministers or ministers who are just chaplains but don't have a congregation to perform marriages), it is most likely constitutional.